Minnesota: I was shocked to see Manush and Sievers excluded. Wynegar beats out Muddy Ruel and Brian Harper? btw, I'm guessing you have typo on Cecil Travis' WAR rating. He did better than 2.6, correct?
Yes, Travis's WAR is worng. Thanks for the catch, it's fixed now.
Haper was very close to Wynegar: 12.3 to 14.0; and Ruel was even closer, at 13.4. Pretty competitive, for an otherwise low scoring position! Hall of Famer Rick Ferrell (for what it's worth) wasn't even close, at just 6.4.
Hitting wise, Wynegar had an *OPS+ of 89 over 794 Games. Ruel was slightly better, at 92 over 903 Games. And Harper was by far the best hitter of the three, at 110 over 730 games.
Defensively, Ruel benefits from a 2.2 dWAR, throwing out 47% of 752 base stealers; while Haprer gets tagged for -1.7 dWAR throwing out 31% of 678 base stealers. And this is where Wynegar has them both: 3.2 dWAR, throwing out 41% of 830 base runners. By the traditional numbers it still looks like it should have been Ruel over Wynegar, but it was very close (just 0.6 Wins) and the adjustments for the Era and Home Park have to be taken into account. I never though of Harper as being weaker defensively, but his dWAR cancelled out the advatage he had as a hitter.
Now... Manush... Heinie Manush seems like one of those guys that everyone has on their "top ten guys who shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame" List. BUT... in just five and a half seasons, he did manage to rack up 19.6 WAR. And that puts him just one spot behind Stan Spence (20.6.) So... figure he was theoretically on the team unitl 1988, when Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti both passed him. (Gaetti is significant, because it meant that Killebrew would no longer be at 3B, where he was moved when Kent Hrbek made the team, in... ~1986 or '87 or thereabouts.)
Sievers (15.6) was a bit farther back, behind Torii Hunter (16.9), Larry Hisle (17.5), and Shane Mack (18.5). But it's just as likely that he was part of a pre-Hrbek/Gaetti/Puckett (and maybe Hisle) team as well, just as Manush would have been. Sievers was a tough hitter, but his somewhat atypical '57 season tends to stand out in (at least) my memory, possibly leading me to over-rate him a little. Still, he'd have been on the team at SOME point. (And would definitely have been part of my All-Time Senators, had I ever gotten around to them.)
Fairly formidible lineup. Not as great as the Yankees or Giants, of course, but a lot better than most would expect (as would any team with Walter Johnson on it).
Did you overlook Eddie Yost at 3B (24.6 WAR)? Also, too bad Chuck Knoblauch decided to go to New York. Looked like a sure-fire Hall of Famer.
from Hockeydad55:
ReplyDeleteMinnesota: I was shocked to see Manush and Sievers excluded. Wynegar beats out Muddy Ruel and Brian Harper? btw, I'm guessing you have typo on Cecil Travis' WAR rating. He did better than 2.6, correct?
Yes, Travis's WAR is worng. Thanks for the catch, it's fixed now.
ReplyDeleteHaper was very close to Wynegar: 12.3 to 14.0; and Ruel was even closer, at 13.4. Pretty competitive, for an otherwise low scoring position! Hall of Famer Rick Ferrell (for what it's worth) wasn't even close, at just 6.4.
Hitting wise, Wynegar had an *OPS+ of 89 over 794 Games. Ruel was slightly better, at 92 over 903 Games. And Harper was by far the best hitter of the three, at 110 over 730 games.
Defensively, Ruel benefits from a 2.2 dWAR, throwing out 47% of 752 base stealers; while Haprer gets tagged for -1.7 dWAR throwing out 31% of 678 base stealers. And this is where Wynegar has them both: 3.2 dWAR, throwing out 41% of 830 base runners. By the traditional numbers it still looks like it should have been Ruel over Wynegar, but it was very close (just 0.6 Wins) and the adjustments for the Era and Home Park have to be taken into account. I never though of Harper as being weaker defensively, but his dWAR cancelled out the advatage he had as a hitter.
Now... Manush... Heinie Manush seems like one of those guys that everyone has on their "top ten guys who shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame" List. BUT... in just five and a half seasons, he did manage to rack up 19.6 WAR. And that puts him just one spot behind Stan Spence (20.6.) So... figure he was theoretically on the team unitl 1988, when Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti both passed him. (Gaetti is significant, because it meant that Killebrew would no longer be at 3B, where he was moved when Kent Hrbek made the team, in... ~1986 or '87 or thereabouts.)
Sievers (15.6) was a bit farther back, behind Torii Hunter (16.9), Larry Hisle (17.5), and Shane Mack (18.5). But it's just as likely that he was part of a pre-Hrbek/Gaetti/Puckett (and maybe Hisle) team as well, just as Manush would have been. Sievers was a tough hitter, but his somewhat atypical '57 season tends to stand out in (at least) my memory, possibly leading me to over-rate him a little. Still, he'd have been on the team at SOME point. (And would definitely have been part of my All-Time Senators, had I ever gotten around to them.)
(Manush as well.)
Starting lineup:
ReplyDelete1B: Killebrew
2B: Carew
SS: Cronin
3B: Lewis
C: Mauer
RF: Rice or Oliva
CF: Puckett
LF: Goslin
SP: Johnson
SP: Blyleven
SP: Viola
SP: Santana
SP: Kaat
RP: Nathan
RP: Guardado
RP: Aguilera
RP: Marberry
RP: Worthington
Fairly formidible lineup. Not as great as the Yankees or Giants, of course, but a lot better than most would expect (as would any team with Walter Johnson on it).
Did you overlook Eddie Yost at 3B (24.6 WAR)? Also, too bad Chuck Knoblauch decided to go to New York. Looked like a sure-fire Hall of Famer.