Boston: How close are Jimmy Collins, Carl Mays, and Sammy White (vs Gedman)? I struggle with the thought of Wakefield, especially in omitting Mays or Ruth, but I realize that he has been there so long that he is high on many Red Sox career rankings.
It's funny you should mention those guys, becuase I had Collins, Mays and Ruth on my old, Pre-1950 All-Time (Classic) Red Sox and White (rather than Gedman) on my Post-1950 All-Time (Modern) Red Sox; teams that were picked based solely on my own opinion. I also had Wakefield on the Post-1950 team as well. His longevity helps him, to be sure, but not as much as you might think. Taking just his best five seasons, he'd have 18.7 WAR, just behind Dennis Eckersley's 19.4. And it's not like he was completely useless in his other ELEVEN years with the team. (Just three: 1999, 2000 and last year! LOL) So he didn't just 'stick around.' He put up some fair numbers, at his best, as well.
So... case by case:
Collins, at 3B, was pretty strong with 26.6 WAR, actually making him the next runner-up behind Larry Gardner, who had 27.8. In fact, only Joe Cronin (SS, 26.9) was between them. (Subjectively, I'd have taken Collins at 3B, and Cronin as SS, on the basis of them being in the Hall, but I had both Gardner and Pesky on my pre-1950's Red Sox as well.) I could also move Rico Petrocelli (SS-3B, 35.6) from the second 3B slot, into a SS slot to make room for Collins, but Collins is beat out there by Johnny Pesky (SS-3B, 30.6) and John Valentin (SS-3B, 30.5), not to mention Cronin. I was surprised that Valentin placed as high as he did, but he WAS a pretty good hitter for a [mostly] career SS, even by mid-90's (pre- Nomar, Jeter and A-Rod) standards.
Carl Mays - a guy who more often than not I think of as a should-be Hall of Famer - had a WAR of just 14.4 with Boston, ranking him 28th over all. So he wasn't really close. In fact, he's just behind RELIEVERS Dick Radatz (14.9) and Jonathan Papelbon (15.1).
Catcher is historically a weak position for Boston, aside from Fisk and Varitek anyway. Just behind Gemdan (10.5) was Hall of Famer Rick Ferrell (9.7). WELL behind them was Birde Tebbetts (4.2.) And White (1.5) was just behind Bob Montgomerry (1.9) and Scott Hatteberg (1.6.) (That's not the whole Catcher's list, BTW, just a few names that I picked out for comparison's sake.) So while I think it's a shame that White is largely forgotten, and quite underated, he wasn't really all that close.
Funny thing about Ruth - and I may have to come up with a rule to fix this - he had 22.2 WAR as a hitter (LF-P) and 18.3 WAR as a Pitcher. Neither on it's own was enough to make the team, but COMBINED, 40.6 WAR would be more than enough to easily put him on, either in the OF (bumping out Fred Lynn, 29.7) or as a Pitcher (bumping out Dennis Eck at 19.4.) I guess, given those two numbers, Eck would be tho one to get cut.
But I'll have to figure out under which circumstances I want to take a Pitcher's OFFENSIVE WAR into account. (Since OF'ers generally don't Pitch much, I don't think I'll need to concern myself going the other way!) Generally, a Pitcher's offensive WAR will only hurt him, and I was keen to ignore a Pitcher's hitting. But THAT hurts not only guys like Ruth, but also (for exampele) Don Newcombe, who's 5.9 WAR as a HITTER would have EASILY been enough to get him on the Dodgers team, were it added to his WAR as a PITCHER. (Before I figure in any of the other Pitcher's hitting anyway.) But taking Pitcher's hitting into account would really, REALLY complicate matters. So I'll have to think about it. And if I do something like this, it can't JUST be for Ruth - I'd have to make a rule that could be applied universally...
Maybe... if a "Pitcher" also happens to qualify at another position? That would effectively, though not theoretically, apply to just Ruth... THAT could work... I'll have think about that.
I'd definitely rather have George Herman than Dennis Eck, anyway!
I decided to go ahead and establish what will probably end up just being called the "Babe Ruth Rule." See the "Roster Spots" tab for the details, but the implicastion here is that the lowest rate Pitcher or Outfielder will be cut to make room for Ruth. And that just happens to be Dennis Eckersley. So Eck's now gone and the Babe in in.
Ruth certainly is an unusual case. A similar player to a lesser degree perhaps is Smokey Joe Wood. Given that in Ruth's last season he was playing semi-regular OF as well as SP in Boston, the "Babe Ruth Rule" makes sense.
Well, I went and defined a minimum qualification for Pitchers (G+GS>=70) and with that defined, Ruth qualifies as both a SP and in LF. Wood actually wouldn't qualify under this rule however: He's strictly a Picther for Boston, and only qualifies in the OF in Cleveland. For his CAREER he would, but not in either city.
Also... just a side note: As I finished this page, I discovered that Larry Gardner qualifies at 2B as well as 3B. So after some shuffling, Billy Goodman (2B) in out, Johnny-V (or Rico-Petro) will slide over to 3B and Joe Cronin is in at SS; despite whatever I said in my previous comment.
from Hockeydad55:
ReplyDeleteBoston: How close are Jimmy Collins, Carl Mays, and Sammy White (vs Gedman)? I struggle with the thought of Wakefield, especially in omitting Mays or Ruth, but I realize that he has been there so long that he is high on many Red Sox career rankings.
It's funny you should mention those guys, becuase I had Collins, Mays and Ruth on my old, Pre-1950 All-Time (Classic) Red Sox and White (rather than Gedman) on my Post-1950 All-Time (Modern) Red Sox; teams that were picked based solely on my own opinion. I also had Wakefield on the Post-1950 team as well. His longevity helps him, to be sure, but not as much as you might think. Taking just his best five seasons, he'd have 18.7 WAR, just behind Dennis Eckersley's 19.4. And it's not like he was completely useless in his other ELEVEN years with the team. (Just three: 1999, 2000 and last year! LOL) So he didn't just 'stick around.' He put up some fair numbers, at his best, as well.
ReplyDeleteSo... case by case:
Collins, at 3B, was pretty strong with 26.6 WAR, actually making him the next runner-up behind Larry Gardner, who had 27.8. In fact, only Joe Cronin (SS, 26.9) was between them. (Subjectively, I'd have taken Collins at 3B, and Cronin as SS, on the basis of them being in the Hall, but I had both Gardner and Pesky on my pre-1950's Red Sox as well.) I could also move Rico Petrocelli (SS-3B, 35.6) from the second 3B slot, into a SS slot to make room for Collins, but Collins is beat out there by Johnny Pesky (SS-3B, 30.6) and John Valentin (SS-3B, 30.5), not to mention Cronin. I was surprised that Valentin placed as high as he did, but he WAS a pretty good hitter for a [mostly] career SS, even by mid-90's (pre- Nomar, Jeter and A-Rod) standards.
Carl Mays - a guy who more often than not I think of as a should-be Hall of Famer - had a WAR of just 14.4 with Boston, ranking him 28th over all. So he wasn't really close. In fact, he's just behind RELIEVERS Dick Radatz (14.9) and Jonathan Papelbon (15.1).
Catcher is historically a weak position for Boston, aside from Fisk and Varitek anyway. Just behind Gemdan (10.5) was Hall of Famer Rick Ferrell (9.7). WELL behind them was Birde Tebbetts (4.2.) And White (1.5) was just behind Bob Montgomerry (1.9) and Scott Hatteberg (1.6.) (That's not the whole Catcher's list, BTW, just a few names that I picked out for comparison's sake.) So while I think it's a shame that White is largely forgotten, and quite underated, he wasn't really all that close.
Funny thing about Ruth - and I may have to come up with a rule to fix this - he had 22.2 WAR as a hitter (LF-P) and 18.3 WAR as a Pitcher. Neither on it's own was enough to make the team, but COMBINED, 40.6 WAR would be more than enough to easily put him on, either in the OF (bumping out Fred Lynn, 29.7) or as a Pitcher (bumping out Dennis Eck at 19.4.) I guess, given those two numbers, Eck would be tho one to get cut.
But I'll have to figure out under which circumstances I want to take a Pitcher's OFFENSIVE WAR into account. (Since OF'ers generally don't Pitch much, I don't think I'll need to concern myself going the other way!) Generally, a Pitcher's offensive WAR will only hurt him, and I was keen to ignore a Pitcher's hitting. But THAT hurts not only guys like Ruth, but also (for exampele) Don Newcombe, who's 5.9 WAR as a HITTER would have EASILY been enough to get him on the Dodgers team, were it added to his WAR as a PITCHER. (Before I figure in any of the other Pitcher's hitting anyway.) But taking Pitcher's hitting into account would really, REALLY complicate matters. So I'll have to think about it. And if I do something like this, it can't JUST be for Ruth - I'd have to make a rule that could be applied universally...
Maybe... if a "Pitcher" also happens to qualify at another position? That would effectively, though not theoretically, apply to just Ruth... THAT could work... I'll have think about that.
I'd definitely rather have George Herman than Dennis Eck, anyway!
Thanks! Good food for thought!
I decided to go ahead and establish what will probably end up just being called the "Babe Ruth Rule." See the "Roster Spots" tab for the details, but the implicastion here is that the lowest rate Pitcher or Outfielder will be cut to make room for Ruth. And that just happens to be Dennis Eckersley. So Eck's now gone and the Babe in in.
ReplyDeleteRuth certainly is an unusual case. A similar player to a lesser degree perhaps is Smokey Joe Wood. Given that in Ruth's last season he was playing semi-regular OF as well as SP in Boston, the "Babe Ruth Rule" makes sense.
ReplyDelete-- hockeydad55
Well, I went and defined a minimum qualification for Pitchers (G+GS>=70) and with that defined, Ruth qualifies as both a SP and in LF. Wood actually wouldn't qualify under this rule however: He's strictly a Picther for Boston, and only qualifies in the OF in Cleveland. For his CAREER he would, but not in either city.
ReplyDeleteAlso... just a side note: As I finished this page, I discovered that Larry Gardner qualifies at 2B as well as 3B. So after some shuffling, Billy Goodman (2B) in out, Johnny-V (or Rico-Petro) will slide over to 3B and Joe Cronin is in at SS; despite whatever I said in my previous comment.